HARRY SCOTT, Sworn In For The State, 11th To Testify

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HARRY SCOTT, sworn for the State.

I am Superintendent of the local branch of the Pinkerton Detective Agency. I have worked on this case with John Black, city detective. I was employed by Mr. Frank representing the National Pencil Company. I saw Mr. Frank Monday afternoon, April 28th, at the pencil factory. We went into Mr. Frank's private office. Mr. Darley and a third party were with us. Mr. Frank said, I guess you read in the newspapers about the horrible crime that was committed in this factory, and the directors of this company and myself have had a conference and thought that the public should demand that we have an investigation made, and endeavor to determine who is responsible for this murder," and Mr. Frank then said he had just come from police barracks and that Detective Black seemed to suspect him of the crime, and he then related to me his movements on Saturday, April 26th, in detail. He stated that he arrived at the factory at 8 a. m. , that he left the factory between 9:30 and 10 with Mr. Darley for Montag Bros. for the mail, that he remained at Montag Bros. for about an hour; that he returned to the factory at about 11 o'clock, and just before twelve o'clock, Mrs. White, the wife of Arthur White, who was working on the top floor of the building that day with Harry Denham, came in and asked permission to go upstairs and see her husband. Mr. Frank granted her permission to do so. He then stated that Mary Phagan came in to the factory at 12:10 p. m. to draw her pay; that she had been laid off the Monday previous and she was paid $1. 20; that he paid her off in his inside office where he was at his desk, and when she left his office and went in the outer office, she had reached the outer office door, leading into the hall and turned around to Mr. Frank and asked if the metal had come yet; Mr. Frank replied that he didn't know and that Mary Phagan then he thought reached the stairway, and he heard voices, but he could not distinguish whether they were men or girls talking, that about 12:50 he went up to the fourth floor and asked White and Denham when they would finish up their work and they replied they wouldn't finish up for a couple of hours; that Mrs. White was up there at the time and Frank informed Mrs. White that he was going to lock up the factory, that she had better leave; Mrs. White preceded Mr. Frank down the stairway and went on out of the factory as far as he knew, but on the way out, Mrs. White made the statement that she had seen a negro on the street floor of the building behind some boxes, and Mr. Frank stated that at 1:10 p. m. he left the factory for home to go to luncheon; he arrived at the factory again at 3 p. m. , went to work on some financial work and at about four o'clock the night watchman reported for work, as per Mr. Frank's instructions the previous day; that he allowed Newt Lee to go out and have a good time for a couple of hours and report again at six o'clock, which Newt did and at six o'clock when Lee returned to the factory, he asked Mr. Frank, as he usually did, if everything was all right, and Mr. Frank replied "Yes" and Lee went on about his business. Mr. Frank left the factory at 6:04 p. m. and when he reached the street door entrance he found Lee talking to Gantt, an ex-book-keeper who Frank had discharged for thieving. Mr. Frank stated that he had arrived home at about 6:25 p. m. and knowing that he had discharged Gantt, he tried to get Lee on the telephone at about 6:30; knowing that Lee would be in the vicinity of the time clock at that time and could hear the telephone ring; that he did not succeed in getting him at 6:30, but that he got him at seven; that he asked Lee the question if Gantt had left the factory and if everything was all right, to which Lee replied "Yes," and he hung up the receiver. Mr. Frank stated he went to bed somewhere around 9:30.

After that Mr. Frank and Mr. Darley accompanied me around the factory and showed me what the police had found. Mr. Darley being the spokesman. We went first to the metal room on the second floor, where I was shown some spots supposed to be blood spots, they were already chipped up, and I was taken to a machine where some strands of hair were supposed to have been found. From there we went down and examined the time clock and went through the scuttle hole and down the ladder into the basement, where I was shown where everything had been found. As to Mr. Frank's manner and department at the time we were in his office, he seemed to be perfectly natural. I saw no signs of nervousness. Occasionally between words he seemed to take a deep breath, and deep sighs about four or five times. His eyes were very large and piercing. They looked about the same they do now. He was a little pale. He gave his narrative rather rapidly. As to whether he stated any fixed definite time as to hours or minutes, he didn't state any definite time as to when Mary Phagan came in, he said she came in at about 12:10. We furnished attorneys for Frank with reports. After refreshing my memory I now state that Mr. Frank informed me at the time I had that conversation with him that he heard these voices before 12 o'clock, before Mary Phagan came. He also stated during our conversation that Gantt knew Mary Phagan very well, that he was familiar and intimate with her. He seemed to lay special stress on it at the time. He said that Gantt paid a good deal of attention to her. As to whether anything was said by any attorney of Frank's as to our suppressing any evidence as to this murder, it was the first week in May when Mr. Pierce and I went to Mr. Herbert J. Haas' office in the 4th National Bank building and had a conference with him as to the Pinkerton Agency's position in the matter. Mr. Haas stated that he would rather we would submit our reports to him first before we turned it over to the police and let them know what evidence we had gathered. We told him we would withdraw before we would adopt any practice of that sort, that it was our intention to work in hearty co-operation with the police.

I saw the place near the girls' dressing room on the office floor, fresh chips had already been cut out of the floor, and I saw white smeared where the chips had been cut out and there were also some dark spots near the chipped out places. It was just as though somebody had taken a cloth and rubbed some white substance around in a circle, about eight inches in diameter. This white stuff covered all of the dark spots. I didn't note any unusual signs of nervousness about Frank in his office. There wasn't any trembling or anything of that sort at that time. He was not composed. On Tuesday night, April 29th, Black, Mr. Frank and myself were together and Mr. Black told Mr. Frank that he believed Newt Lee was not telling all that he knew. I also said to Mr. Frank that Newt knew more than he was telling, and that as he was his employer, I thought he could get more out of the nigger than we could, and I asked him if he would consent to go into a room as employer and employee and try to get it out of him. Mr. Frank readily consented and we put them in a private room, they were together there for about ten minutes alone. When about ten minutes was up, Mr. Black and I entered the room and Lee hadn't finished his conversation with Frank and was saying, "Mr. Frank it is awful hard for me to remain handcuffed to this chair," and Frank hung his head the entire time the negro was talking to him, and finally in about thirty seconds, he said, "Well, they have got me too. " After that we asked Mr. Frank if he had gotten anything out of the negro and he said, "No, Lee still sticks to his original story," Mr. Frank was extremely nervous at that time. He was very squirmy in his chair, crossing one leg after the other and didn't know where to put his hands; he was moving them up and down his face, and he hung his head a great deal of the time while the negro was talking to him. He breathed very heavily and took deep swallows, and sighed and hesitated somewhat. His eyes were about the same as they are now. That interview between Lee and Frank took place shortly after midnight, Wednesday, April 30th. On Monday afternoon, Frank said to me that the first punch on Newt Lee's slip was 6:33 p. m., and his last punch was 3 a. m. Sunday. He didn't say anything at that time about there being any error in Lee's punches. Mr. Black and I took Mr. Frank into custody about 11:30 a. m. Tuesday, April 29th. His hands were quivering very much, he was very pale. On Saturday, May 3rd, I went to Frank's cell at the jail with Black and I asked Mr. Frank if from the time he arrived at the factory from Montag Bros. up until 12:50 p. m., the time he went upstairs to the fourth floor, was he inside of his office the entire time, and he stated "yes. " Then I asked him if he was inside his office every minute from 12 o'clock until 12:30 and he said "Yes. " I made a very thorough search of the area around the elevator and radiator and back in there. I made a surface search. I found nothing at all. I found no ribbon or purse, or pay envelope, or bludgeon or stick. I spent a great deal of time around the trap door and I remember running the light around the door way right close to the elevator, looking for splotches of blood, but I found nothing.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

Yes, I sent you this report as to what happened between Mr. Herbert J. Haas and myself: "This afternoon Supt. H. B. Pierce and myself held a conference with Mr. Herbert Haas, at which the agency's position in the matter was discussed, and Mr. Haas stated they wanted to learn who the murderer was, regardless of who it involved. " Mr. Haas told me that after I had told him we would withdraw from the case before we would not co-operate with the police. No, I did not report that to you. I reported the motive of our conference. No, I did not say anything about Mr. Haas wanting us to do anything except locate the murderer. Yes, I talked to you afterwards and you also told me to find the murderer, even if it was Frank. Mr. Haas had said to Mr. Pierce and me that he would rather that we submit our reports of evidence to him before we turned it over to the police. No, there was nothing said about not giving this to the police. I testified at the coroner's inquest as to what conversation I had with Mr. Frank. I did not give you in my report the details of Mr. Frank's morning movements, when he left home, arrived at the factory and went to Montag Bros. , and returned to the factory. As to my not saying one word about Gantt being familiar with this little girl, that was just an oversight, that is all. No, I did not testify to that either at the coroner's inquest. I didn't put it in the report to you, because Gantt was released the next day and I didn't consider him a suspect. There was no reason for my not giving it to you. It was an oversight. I am representing the National Pencil Company, who employed me, and not Mr. Frank individually. It is true in my report to you with reference to the interview between me and Mr. Frank that I stated, "I had no way of knowing what they said because they were both together privately in a room there and we had no way of knowing except what Lee told us afterwards. " I now state that I did hear the last words of Lee. I didn't put in my notes that Gantt was familiar with Mary Phagan, I don't put everything in my notes and the coroner didn't examine me about it either. No, I didn't tell the coroner anything about Frank crossing his legs and putting his hands up to his face. I never went into detail down there. No I didn't mention his hanging his head. We always work with the police on criminal cases. No, I did not testify before the coroner about any white stuff having been smeared over those supposed blood spots. I am not sure whether I got the statement about Mary Phagan being familiar with Gantt from Mr. Darley or Mr. Frank. Mr. Frank was present at the time. Mr. Frank told me when the little girl asked if the metal had come back that he said "I don't know. " It may be true that I swore before the coroner that in answer to that question from Mary Phagan as to whether the metal had come yet that Frank said, "No," and it is possible that I so reported to you. If I said "No," I meant "I don't know. " I say now that Mr. Frank told me he left the factory at 1:10 p. m. If I reported to you that he told me he left at one o'clock, I made a very serious mistake. That is an oversight. Yes, I reported to the police before I reported to Mr. Haas or Mr. Montag.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.

Yes, our agency reported to the police about finding the club. I find it is in our report of May 15th. I don't know when it was reported; I was out of town. I worked all through this case with Detective Black and every move he made was known to both of us. As to the stairway from the basement to the upper floor, there was a great deal of dust on the stairs and the dust didn't seem to be disturbed. This stairway is not in the picture but is near the back door. It was nailed and closed.

HARRY SCOTT, re-called for State.

It took Jim Conley two or three minutes to write out the notes that

I dictated to him.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I knew on Monday that Mrs. White claimed she saw a darkey at the

pencil factory. I gave that information to the police department. Mr.

Frank gave me the information when I first talked to him. I never inquired

of Frank or any of the pencil factory people if Conley could write.

Sunday, May 18th, I was present when Conley made his statement. May

18th. I wrote it out myself. (Defendant's Exhibit 36). He made no

further statement on that day. He stated that he did not go to the pencil

factory at all that day. At that time I knew he could write. He told

me everything that was in that statement. The information that Conley

could write came from the pencil factory on May 18th. On May 18th I

dictated to Conley these words: "That long tall black negro did by himself. “

I dictated each word singly and I should judge it took him more

than six or seven minutes to write it. He writes quite slowly. When he

was brought before Mrs. White to see if she could identify him he was

chewing his lips and twirling a cigarette in his fingers. He didn't seem to

know how to hold on to it. He could not keep feet still. He positively denied

on May 18th that he had anything to do with the murder of Mary

Phagan and that he was at the factory at all. We talked very strongly

to him and tried to make him give a confession. We used a little profanity and cussed him. He made that statement after he knew that I knew he could write. We had him for about two or three hours that day. He made another statement on May 24th which was put in writing. (Defendant's Exhibit 37). He was carried to Mr. Dorsey's office that day

and went over the statement with Mr. Dorsey. He still denied that he

had seen the little girl the day of the murder. He swore to all that the

statement contains. That statement was a voluntary statement from

him. He sent for Mr. Black and we went there together. We questioned

him again very closely for about three hours on May 25th. He repeated

the story that he told in his statement of May 24th. We saw him again

on May 27th in Chief Lanford's office. Talked to him about five or six

hours. We tried to impress him with the fact that Frank would not have

written those notes on Friday. That that was not a reasonable story.

That showed premeditation and that would not do. We pointed out to

him why the first statement would not fit. We told him we wanted another

statement. He declined to make another statement. He said he

had told the truth. On May 28th Chief Lanford and I grilled him for

five or six hours again, endeavoring to make clear several points which

were far fetched in his statement. We pointed out to him that his statement

would not do and would not fit. He then made us another long

statement on May 28th (Defendant's Exhibit 38), having been told that

his previous statement showed deliberation; that that could not be accepted. He told us then all that appears in the statement of May 28th.

He never told us anything about Mr. Frank making an engagement for

him to stamp for him and for him to lock the door. He told us nothing

about seeing Monteen Stover. He did not tell us about seeing Mary Pha-gan. He said he did not see her. He didn't say he saw Lemmie Quinn.

Conley was a rather dirty negro when I first saw him. He looked pretty good when he testified here. Frank was arrested Tuesday morning at about 11:30; on May 29th we had another talk with him. Talked with

him almost all day. Yes, we pointed out things in his story that were improbable and told him he must do better than that. Anything in his story

that looked to be out of place we told him wouldn't do. After he had

made his last statement we didn't wish to make any further suggestion

to him at that time. He then made his last statement on May 29th (Defendant's Exhibit 39). He told us all that appears in that statement.

We tried to get him to tell about the little mesh bag. We tried pretty

strong. He always denied ever having seen it. He never said that he

saw it in Frank's office, or that Frank put it in his safe. We asked him

about the parasol. He didn't tell us anything about it. He didn't tell

us anything about Frank stumbling as he got on the street floor at the

elevator and hit him. Since making this statement on May 29th I have

not communicated with Conley and have not seen him. He never told us

that he came from his home straight to the factory. He denied knowing

anything about the fecal matter down in the basement in the elevator

shaft. He never said he went down there himself between the time he

first came to the factory and went to Montag's. He never said he thought

the name of the little girl was Mary Perkins. He never said anything at

all about Mary Perkins. We pressed him that day as to whether he saw

Mary Phagan or not. He finally told us that he saw her dead body. He

never did tell us that he heard a lady scream though we asked him about

it. He said he did not hear anybody scream while he was sitting on the

box. He said he didn't hear anything at all that day. He never said any

thing about Mr. Frank having hit her, and having hit her too hard. He

never said anything about somebody running on tiptoes from the metal

department and back again. He said he did not hear any stamping. He

did not tell us anything about Mr. Frank tell- Ing him how to lock the door. He did not tell us anything about Frank having a cord in his hand at the top of the steps or that Frank looked funny about his eyes or that his face was red. He didn't tell us that he went back there and found the little

girl with a rope around her neck and a piece of underclothing or that he

went back to Mr. Frank and told him the girl was dead, or that he wrapped

her in a piece of cloth. He said it was a crocus sack. He did not say

anything about Mr. Frank saying "Sh-sh. " He didn't say that he put

the sack on his shoulder and that body dangled round about his legs. He

said he never saw the ribbon; didn't know where it was. We asked him

whether there was any thought of burning the body and he said not. He

didn't know anything about that. He never said anything about his

promising to come back and burn the body or that he said to Mr. Frank

"You are a white man and done it, and I am not going down there and

burn it myself;" or that Mr. Frank had arranged to give his bond and

send him away; or that Frank said he would have a place to get in by

when he came back to burn the body, or said he owed a Jew ten cents and

paid it. He did not tell us of any conversation he had with Mr. Frank on

Tuesday after the murder in which Mr. Frank said "If you had come

back on Saturday and done what I told you there wouldn't have been

any trouble. " As to the scene between Conley and me when I undertook

to convince him that I knew he could write on Sunday, May 18th, I called

him up at Chief Lanford's office, gave him a paper and pencil and told

him that we understood he said he couldn't write and now we knew he

could write and we wanted him to write what we told him. He sat there

and looked at us while we were talking and I told him to write as I dictated

and he picked up the pencil and wrote immediately. We convinced

him that we knew he could write and then he wrote.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.

I got information as to Conley writing through my operations while

I was out of town. McWorth told me when I returned. I got no information

personally about Conley being able to write from the pencil company

people. Personally I did not get information as to Conley's being

able to write from pencil company. I got it from outside sources, wholly

disconnected with the pencil company. As to whom I first communicated

anything about Mrs. White's statement about seeing a negro down there,

my impression is I told it in my many conversations with Black, and

Chief Lanford and Bass Rosser. Don't know the day. It was shortly

after April 28th. After Conley made his last statement Chief Beavers,

Lanford and I went to the jail with Conley and saw the sheriff and he

went to Frank's cell. The last time I saw Frank was Saturday, May 3rd.

As to whether Mr. Frank refused to see me, only through Sheriff Mangum,

as to the number of matters I told Conley didn't fit the first time

and those I told him didn't fit the last time, I could not name those, that

would almost be impossible unless I had the statement clear in my head.

I never suggested what to put in or what to substitute or what to change.

They came from Conley himself.

THE STATE RESTS.

EVIDENCE FOR THE DEFENDANT.